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Published Oct 22, 21
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I desire to offer you all a break for a minute and also transform to Mr. Swartz. Usually, we would have had two panels, yet we didn't recognize just how the Senate would certainly be operating today, so in an effort to make sure we obtained via all the treaties today, we did this as one panel.

Swartz, you explain in your testament as well as your declarations that the treaty with Bermuda also pierces financial institution privacy as well as supplies a system for us obtaining the information we need. There have been some mutual lawful assistance treaties which contain provisions related directly to sharing financial institution documents or other financial information.

Swartz. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. With regard to that certain concern, the committee may be describing the relatively brand-new arrangement that shows up, for circumstances, in our E.U.-U.S. Mutual Legal Help Treaty, the identification of bank records stipulation. That was a stipulation that was prepared and also taken on in the context of the E.U.

Under that arrangement, it's possible for the asking for celebration to inquire as to whether an account exists in the asked for nation, or when it comes to the E.U., one of the asked for participant states. But, thereafter, the request, if there is an identification of an account, need to be followed up with a typical common lawful aid treaty.

And when it come to Bermuda, our record of collaboration has been excellent. We believe that the record we have on the production of records, consisting of financial institution documents, is such that we are positive that the provisions consisted of in this common legal help treaty, which do require cooperation on the manufacturing of records, will certainly be adequate to make sure that we obtain the records we need for our economic investigations and other examinations.

Some other MLATs likewise allow for immediate, non-written form requests to be made. Mr. Chairman, while it is real that the Shared Lawful Help Treaty does need requests in written kind, it was the judgment of the arbitrators that it was enough that, in this instance, with regard to Bermuda, we would certainly be able to obtain prompt actions to our demands and additionally give such actions to Bermuda's demands, specifically due to the fact that we have a practice currently developed that will certainly proceed, we believe, under the treaty of being able to share those requests via e-mail or with fax.

Senator Cardin. Was this, generally, a choice made by UNITED STATE mediators, that it was not needed, recognizing just how we can rapidly get faxes and also e-mails sent? Is that reasonable enough to state, or otherwise? Mr. Johnson. Senator, if I can aid on that particular one? Senator Cardin. Certain. Mr. Johnson.

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Bermuda withstood that because they intended to make sure that the requests were clear and also in an extra official method. But in the settlements, it likewise came to be clear that they accepted that such demand could be made by fax or by e-mail. So the real issue they were worried about was not locating a fast ways to make a demand, however actually just taking dental requests off the table.

So we're certain that we have actually obtained the means in area that we can make immediate requests of them in such a way that will certainly work. Mr. Swartz. Mr. Chairman, if I may add, in fact, while it is a benefit to be able to make dental demands, in technique, it's extremely uncommon that we do so.

Legislator Cardin. My primary concern is just, in urgent matters, that it's not delayed. As well as with modern interaction, it appears to me that can possibly be taken care of. I'm much more concerned about bank documents. Mr. Johnson, do have any talk about the financial institution documents issue? Mr. Johnson. Once more, not particularly on the financial institution concern.

The distinction in between having the ability to do a dental request or being able to make use of one of these other very rapid means, we believe, is not substantial. Senator Cardin. There have actually been some concerns raised concerning the competence of Bermuda legislation with regard to forfeits of earnings and agencies of criminal offenses.

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Swartz. Mr. Chairman, we are. Of course, the growth of loss regulation is a crucial and modern matter. We've seen a variety of changes throughout the years, including here in the United States. The Mutual Lawful Aid Treaty in Article 17 does obligate Bermuda to give help to the United States in proceedings connecting to forfeit of profits as well as instrumentalities of crime, to the extent permitted by the regulation of Bermuda.

We've had 2 instances of successful ask for restriction as well as loss of possessions. Both circumstances were a success and we were able to get the funds. As a basic matter, support is available under the laws of Bermuda, and also I do believe that is necessary to anxiety, when it come to cold, taking, and limiting properties, consisting of for issues associating with terrorism and terrorism funding.

Yet it should be noted that forfeiture assistance is not restricted to what is permitted under Bermuda's residential legislation. When it come to an U.S. order, Bermuda can not surrender a details instrumentality of nondrug offenses, because that power does not exist domestically. Once more, that's restricted to agencies in nondrug offense instances.

Legislator Cardin. Thanks. Allow me simply ask the general question, as well as any one of you can reply to it. In the Bermuda agreement, there's an arrangement that is not unknown to us, where Bermuda can refute participation in capital situations. We understand, I recognize that, so I'm not being crucial of that provision being consisted of in there.

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Are we prevented as an outcome of that or exists a way in which we are able to cooperate under this treaty, even in those instances? Mr. Swartz. Mr. Chairman, our company believe and we wish we still would certainly have the ability to work together. Bermuda indicated, and also has encouraged the United States, that it reserves the right to deny help in resources cases where the sentence includes a feasible execution, counting on the-- in contrast to the vital public law stipulation of Short article 3 of the convention.

We have that experience with other nations that have put similar interpretations on the mutual legal support responsibilities, and also we have actually been able to work out arrangements in a number of situations that allow us to get evidence or talk about whether the evidence is considerable enough to go ahead with some kind of further actions being taken.

Mr. Johnson. Mr. Johnson. Yes, Legislator, if I could just contribute to that, one of the reasons this treaty took as lengthy it did to work out as well as end is due to the fact that it was very important to us to make certain that there had not been an express limitation on support in resources cases in the treaty itself.

Swartz pertaining to you. Which method we assume that assists maintain the principle that is necessary to us, that such collaboration needs to be readily available, irrespective of the kind of instance. And we assume this has actually additionally substantiated with some various other countries, where also with comparable problems concerning collaboration in funding situations, they have, as an example, been able to give assistance to the nonpenalty stage of a trial or one more party investigation.

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They do hold the right under this treaty to deny teamwork where the United States criminal justice system is looking for resources penalty? Legislator, they hold the right under the treaty to not supply help in cases that are in contrast to public plan or their necessary rate of interests, as well as they have actually informed us that they interpret that to enable them, in death penalty instances, to exercise that.

Senator Cardin. I comprehend that. I simply intended to make it clear that they would not be an offense of the treaty. We comprehend their interpretation, that if there was a case pending right here that we required their aid, where, clearly, the prosecutors were looking for the capital punishment, Bermuda could make a decision not to cooperate under this treaty (foreign tax credit).

Swartz. If I might say, Mr. Chairman, importantly, the treaty would certainly require, because this would certainly be a denial under Short article 3 of the treaty, that initially there had to be assessments with the United States, prior to that denial could move forward. And I assume that's an important element of the arrangement that Mr.

Instead of having an explicit provision, this is among a set of conditions under which support might be refuted after appointment, and also, amongst other things, that there should be consideration as to whether assistance can be given, based on such conditions as the asked for nation deems necessary. As well as our experience in that respect has actually been that we sometimes can discover appropriate assurances to permit proof to be produced, at the very least for first evaluation of the significance of proof in the situation on the whole.

And also I think that would be practical for us to have that information in this committee. Mr. Swartz. Thank you. foreign tax credit. We 'd rejoice to provide that. Legislator Cardin. Ms. Mc, Carthy, you have the easiest task here, given that this agreement was formerly approved by this board. As I said in my opening, we approved it far too late in the 111th Congress for activity.

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Have there been any type of considerable modifications in our financial investment partnership with Rwanda given that last November when you offered statement on this treaty? What we have actually seen because last November is an increase in United States financial investment in Rwanda, and I can offer you a few instances.

Likewise, in February of this year, we have Hilton Hotels; it's is going to open up a major resort in Kigali. And also, likewise, Marriott Hotels is going in to help with the country's expanding hospitality sector. I would certainly claim that, provided this pattern of raised financial investment, that it is essential that the securities be afforded for them.

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You likewise discussed the truth that the United States is exploring various other reciprocal financial investment treaties in Africa. I believe we have 5 existing bilateral financial investment treaties in Africa. Can you simply share with us other nations that the United States has shown interest in bargaining treaties?



I assume that finishes the examining. I do value your patience with the committee and also thank you very much for your testament today.

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Response. As laid out listed below, we want to supply updated info on reported U.S. financial investment activity in Rwanda. Aside from these updates, the answers given by the Department's witness in the 111th Congress continue to be exact. In 2009, the supply of UNITED STATE foreign straight investment in Rwanda was $1 million (according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis).

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As well as I assume that would be helpful for us to have that information in this committee. Mr. Swartz. Thank you. We would certainly be grateful to provide that. Senator Cardin. Ms. Mc, Carthy, you have the easiest job right here, given that this agreement was previously accepted by this board. As I said in my opening, we authorized it as well late in the 111th Congress for activity.

Have there been any kind of considerable modifications in our financial investment relationship with Rwanda because last November when you provided testimony on this treaty? What we have seen considering that last November is a rise in United States financial investment in Rwanda, as well as I can provide you a few examples.

In February of this year, we have Hilton Hotels; it's is going to open up a major resort in Kigali. As well as, additionally, Marriott Hotels is entering to promote the country's expanding hospitality market. So I would certainly state that, provided this pattern of increased investment, that it is crucial that the defenses be managed for them.

investors. Legislator Cardin (foreign tax credit). I thanks for that. You likewise stated the fact that the United States is checking out other reciprocal financial investment treaties in Africa. I think you mentioned one other country. I assume we have 5 present reciprocal financial investment treaties in Africa. Can you simply share with us various other countries that the United States has shown rate of interest in discussing treaties? Ms.

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Senator Cardin. Thanks. I've been informed by the staff that I need to ask the question of whether the management still sustains the Senate approval of the Rwanda treaty, given that it was held over from the last Congress. For the record? Ms. Mc, Carthy. We absolutely do. Legislator Cardin.

I believe that completes the questioning. We may have some added questions for the record. As you know, the record continues to be open for 24 hours, so you get a break. That's a pretty quick turn-around time for this board. I do value your persistence with the board as well as thank you extremely much for your testimony today.

As set out below, we would such as to provide updated details on reported UNITED STATE financial investment activity in Rwanda. In 2009, the stock of UNITED STATE foreign straight investment in Rwanda was $1 million (according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis).

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